Joe Orji, founder and CEO of Trustcrow joins Vlad Cazacu, co-founder and CEO of Flowlie, to discuss their latest $550K Pre-Seed Round, his lessons from real estate, and why international focus can be a competitive advantage.
Joe Orji, founder and CEO of Trustcrow joins Vlad Cazacu, co-founder and CEO of Flowlie, to discuss their latest $550K Pre-Seed Round, his lessons from real estate, and why international focus can be a competitive advantage.
00:00 Introduction to Joe Orji and Trustcrow
00:16 Welcome to the Fundraising Debrief Podcast
01:21 Joe Orji's Early Career in Real Estate
03:42 Transition to Nigeria and Landmark Africa
06:07 Founding Trustcrow: The Vision and Challenges
12:27 The Fundraising Journey: Strategy and Execution
19:06 Reflections on Fundraising and Relationships
26:42 Rapid Fire Questions and Closing Remarks
You can find Joe Orji on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/joseph-orji-a092017/ and learn more about Trustcrow at https://gotrustcrow.com/.
Learn more about Flowlie and how the platform helped thousands of founders from 70+ countries around the world raise hundreds of millions of dollars. Build your dream cap table with Flowlie's all-in-one Fundraising Hub at https://www.flowlie.com/
Stay up-to-date with all our episodes by checking our website at https://www.thefundraisingdebrief.com/, following us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/thefundraisingd, and on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/thefundraisingdebrief/.
The Fundraising Debrief (Ep. 11) - Joe Orji (Trustrcrow $550K Pre-Seed)
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Joe Orji: [00:00:00] Hi, my name's Joe Orji. I'm the founder and CEO of Trustcrow, which is a Nigerian based instant escrow platform that removes risk and protects your interest when transacting. And we just closed our $550,000 pre seed round.
Vlad Cazacu: Hey everyone. Thanks for tuning in and welcome to the fundraising debrief, the podcast where we share the real stories behind successful founders and the recent VC financing rounds.
Vlad Cazacu: My name is Vlad Cazacu, and I'll be your host today as we interview Joe Orji and follow his journey from Nigeria to the States and back to Nigeria. We touch upon his international background, his real estate roots, and the founding and fundraising story of Trustcrow. Joe brings a lot of wisdom and technical advice on leadership, when to go all in on your idea, fundraising, and company building.
Vlad Cazacu: For more information about running a self fundraising round, including show notes, highlight clips, and exclusive scenes, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at The Fundraising Debrief, as well as on our website at theundraisingdebrief.com. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Flowlie the all in one fundraising hub used by thousands of founders from 70 plus countries [00:01:00] around the world to plan their rounds, reach such investors, share their pitch decks, and track access.
Vlad Cazacu: Now, let's dive right in.
Vlad Cazacu: Joe, such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for accepting our invitation. Really excited for this conversation.
Joe Orji: My absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me, man.
Vlad Cazacu: It's a really exciting to learn more about Trustcrow and your pre seed round. But before we dive into the round and what you're building, we'd like to spend a little bit of time on the beginning of your career, right?
Vlad Cazacu: You spend your first seven years after graduation in real estate in the United States. Walk us a little bit through Joe's life pre MBA and your beginning of your real estate career.
Joe Orji: You nailed it. So Nigerian by birth migrated to US in 1989. Lived in the East Coast most of my life. After graduating from Tufts, I worked for a very large real estate investment services company and we were essentially sell-side advisors and [00:02:00] we worked for investors. So what we did is we basically got engagements to sell an investor's commercial real estate property portfolio and we basically sell that from one investor to another investor.
Joe Orji: So it was very sales heavy also kind of financial underwriting and the key thing with that is that, we ate what we kill. And because, frankly, I'm a hustler, I like working hard.
Joe Orji: So I really liked that role. I did pretty well in it, and it was hardcore man, it was hardcore hustle, it was ground and pump. It was dialing for dollars as we used to say back then. So a lot of cold calls, and it was just, imagine, the movie Boiler Room, except we're in selling equities.
Joe Orji: So it was very interesting and it was just kind of my first foray into real estate. A lot of great relationships back then. Still have many of those relationships now. So yeah, I did that for about, six years and actually I did that from 2004, [00:03:00] 2009. So within that time, there was a great recession.
Joe Orji: So you saw your income go up like this and then come down like this and then kind of go up again. Big time roller coaster, where you made good coin, you lost a lot of coin and then you made some coin again. So, it was really fantastic. And I wanted to retransition, from advisory to really being a principal.
Joe Orji: To be an owner. So, in order to do that, went to Georgetown, got my master's in Georgetown, focused on a bunch of different things, finance, real estate, and also entrepreneurialism. And, because, so do you want me to stop there or keep going by the way?
Vlad Cazacu: No, feel free to go. I mean, my next question would be, you know, walk us a little bit through a transition on the NBN and moving back to Nigeria.
Vlad Cazacu: But I think you're just getting straight to that. So, curious to understand that journey.
Joe Orji: I mean, I wanted to go from being an advisor to being a principal and an owner. Frankly, the best way for me to do [00:04:00] that was to retool a bit. So I decided to get a master's and I went to Georgetown because it was right there in DC.
Joe Orji: And it was cool, focusing on a bunch of different things, including finance, real estate and also entrepreneurism. You know, my dad was an entrepreneur, so I really, how do I say, just really admired that growing up, watching him and I try to emulate him as best as possible. He just, he used to go out and try to close deals. So I grew up, going out and trying to chase deals and close deals. And, at that time, Nigeria was really kind of growing pretty significantly.
Joe Orji: My parents did a great job of kind of never letting us forget where we're from, roots. I kind of always had an interest there and always had an eye there.
Joe Orji: So I was leaving school. I applied and was able to get a couple of internships in Nigeria.
Joe Orji: And it was interesting, I worked for a development firm while I was there and it went well, they liked me and I did pretty [00:05:00] well. I felt it was really the key role in real estate because you're at ground zero. Acquiring existing buildings is cool, but I just thought development was great.
Joe Orji: And in addition to that, Nigeria was a developing country. So I said, wait a second, I can do development and developing country.
Joe Orji: So that was the theory and that company decided to give me an offer when I was leaving Georgetown. I took the crazy decision to come back to Nigeria having lived, having not lived there 24 years prior. So I moved back to Nigeria in 2013 and started working for Landmark Africa.
Joe Orji: So it's pretty incredible. It's pretty awesome.
Vlad Cazacu: I'm curious now that you're in Nigeria have started pursuing this kind of change in [00:06:00] not necessarily career, but change in focus, right? You're developing now that you've made the big jump to move from United States there.
Vlad Cazacu: And at some point you make another big jump, which is starting Trustcrow. So be very interested to understand your thinking around, you know what? I've already taken the risk to go back to a developing country. I think the best thing to do here is start a tech company and raise a round. So let's open up, you know, the head and understand like what was in Joe's mind during that time.
Joe Orji: I'll tell, it's very logical and I'll tell you what it is. So, I've always loved tech, always been super passionate about tech. As I mentioned, while I was at Georgetown, I took entrepreneurial courses and also tailored some of my education towards entrepreneurialism.
Joe Orji: And try to start something there, but just didn't focus on it.
Joe Orji: Moved to Nigeria, 2013. Part of the reason why I decided to move to Nigeria and work for Landmark cause Nigeria had [00:07:00] really poor municipality property databases.
Joe Orji: In America you can look up the property records of any home anywhere in America at any given time. Just go to the counties and probably these registries. All the titles are electronic and because of that, there's no such thing as property form it's all documented as well. In Nigeria, property fraud it is a massive thing.
Joe Orji: Why? Because it's not digitized, it's literally still paper. It's crazy. So municipalities keep these property records in paper form. Doing title search is a pain, takes a long time. It probably costs the country about 6 billion dollars a year and just issues, fraud, lack of investments coming in, uh, just for operations.
Joe Orji: And I just said, listen, you know, I was young and I had ambitions. I said, I can build this thing. So when I graduated Georgetown, before I kind of gotten a job offer, I was trying to build this thing, sitting in my apartment in DC, making calls into Nigeria, doing research, people are getting [00:08:00] calls from this random US number, this random guy doing research, like who the hell is this guy?
Joe Orji: I was pushing, I was like, this doesn't make any sense. I need to actually be on the ground to actually push this thing. So I was like, wait a second, I can have this in my side hustle. I'm trying to build a company, work for Landmark during the day. So earn some coin, learn the terrain and build this at sometime in the future.
Joe Orji: When I did come to Nigeria, as it turns out, I can't really side hustle. I'm terrible at side hustling. I'm zero one. I'm extremely extreme. So it's, I'm either all in or zero. I was probably working 70, 80 hours.
Joe Orji: I did try in like 2015 with a couple guys, tried to build this thing. Two other guys, both of them moved to America. So the dream died again. I left Landmark about six years in, six years into coming to Nigeria. And I started, so at this point I had about 16 years of this experience.
Joe Orji: So I started my own company, my own development, leveraging US experience, my Nigerian experience. We started a [00:09:00] company called Brookstore. I started with the partner and we built a pretty awesome apartment building. It's about 140,000 square meter, 10 story building in Lagos.
It's actually overlooks a golf course and overlooks a polo club. It's called condominiums because it was first US style residential building. Most of the properties here are more kind of European, more British.
Joe Orji: So, we took a shot, everybody said it wouldn't work. That we were crazy. It just wasn't going to work. And I felt differently. I had zero empirical information to that effect. It was a lot of cut, which is very dangerous. Again, leveraging my experience, my background, again, being very ambitious. When you're young, you're stupid as well.
Joe Orji: So we developed a very strong brand, we were able to raise the funding. It was our first project and it was a monster. We probably raised about 14 million bucks for [00:10:00] it.
Joe Orji: So we learned some very serious lessons. The key lesson we learned was payments.
Joe Orji: Vlad and I sign up for a contract. He's my supplier. If I'm lucky, he'll delay me. if I'm unlucky, he'll give me, he'll deliver with poor quality. Which also costs time, money, and rework. So frustration, arguments, etc.
Joe Orji: You develop business to be a real estate developer. Spending time because you have to like apply to the police, apply to different financial organizations to block people's hotness.
Joe Orji: And I spoke to other businesses, several other businesses, and they echoed the exact same thing. Sometimes their stories were even worse than ours.
Joe Orji: My thoughts about supply, or as I put it oversupply in real luxury real estate legacy. What I felt [00:11:00] about the skill sets, real estate folks versus tech folks here. What I felt about the ability to finance real estate projects versus technology projects. So I took a long, hard assessment on all these things.
Joe Orji: And then I pulled the trigger and I told my wife, and I told my family and they said, we don't understand. You don't move to a new market at such a short period of time.
Joe Orji: I did the best I could to explain my reasons why, and they still didn't believe me. So I said, okay, no problem. This is how I solved it. Remember I used to be a salesperson. So I said, no problem. I will give it a year and uh, I'll give it 12 months.
Joe Orji: And if it doesn't work and if I'm not able to get this thing off the ground and then raise to kind of help it take off, then I'll go back to real estate.
Joe Orji: Registered the business November 1st. And then we started designing. So I started writing the [00:12:00] flows in November, December MVP work throughout Christmas and New Year's this year. MVP out in February 9th, started editing March 1st. That small bit of traction in a two month pilot to stop the pilot April 30th Started raising literally the next day May 1st.
Joe Orji: We set out to raise 500, 000 and you know at that time you can figure what's going on. Fed is raising rates, Crypto is going to oblivion. Deals are dying, we're front and center. All my friends, all my HBS friends, all my project group friends said that it took them six and nine months to raise a similar amount, at a similar stage as I was. And told me to get ready for that same time.
Joe Orji: So I said, okay, no problem. We finished in around eight weeks. We closed out around June 30th and then money finished coming in end of [00:13:00] July. So yeah, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Vlad Cazacu: Fantastic. Fantastic. I mean, big congrats on the raise and everything you were able to accomplish in such a short period of time.
Vlad Cazacu: Before I go to my next question, I want to just say for the record, Vlad would deliver on time and better quality than originally expected. But just to make sure that I get this part, it gets recorded as well. I'm really curious to dive into that raise because you brought up the conversation exactly where I wanted to take it, which is in the midst of the whole economic downturn, the whole financial world sort of going belly up. And everybody is wondering like: are the private markets gonna look the same as they did in the past?
Vlad Cazacu: Are we kind of losing all the momentum? Are companies getting funded? You were able to raise more than you originally planned for that pre seed and successfully do it in eight weeks. Let's take it step by step, like your preparation, your [00:14:00] strategy going into it, how that evolve over time, the number of meetings that you had, walk us through the setup phase, and then let's go into what actually happened.
Joe Orji: I've been talking to a lot of people about this since we started. I speak to people and I just take notes and I just keep notes on who I should go back to.
Joe Orji: Whenever I went out, it didn't matter where I was, cocktail party, just sit in the street and I was always talking about it. So when we started the business, I actually knew what most of the objections would be. So during that time when we were building things out, we literally took care of that. And the second thing it did for me is create a list of people to go to when we started fundraising. So by the time we went out to the street to do some fundraising, I had a list of about 200 people, that I was going to call.
Joe Orji: On May 1st, I actually started little bit early because I have some close friends. So, April 30th, I just started, like, [00:15:00] firing these things out by WhatsApp. Giving them a few days at a time and just pounding the phone. Remember again, I used to be an advisor. I was sales heavy. I love sales. And this has come very naturally to me. I think we sent the deck out to 70 people in the first week. I think we started like 10 to 10 every day, Monday through Sunday. Sunday, we started at 2, because we had a few hours in church.
Joe Orji: I should actually take a step back and talk about why I feel successful. I feel successful in our fundraise for the same reason that we're successful in developing the building. For the fundraise, we did what most people would never do, which is we completely ignored these things. Completely. We went after family and friends. It was an FNF run. We had family and friends.
Joe Orji: So why did I do it? So you just need to be cautious of who you are, what your strengths [00:16:00] are. Like I said, I've had 20 years of work experience. I'm a pretty good networker. So I'm always meeting people and I have a large database, you know, some contacts. And also many of these people had seen me actually start something, start a different business and different project.
Joe Orji: And an execute and carry out and complete that project. In some of the hardest times. We're actually going to sell that project at a worse time because. In the middle of that 3 and a half year project, we had 2 recessions. So it was only by the grace of God that we actually finished this.
Joe Orji: This thing was meant to be taken out, but again, also working 85 hours, just never saying, never, just this thing has. So those folks saw me execute that. I'm not a young kid. I've got not just 20 years of bullshit experience, experience is what I've been experiencing, 20 years of actually executing, exiting, and delivering and making money on two different [00:17:00] continents.
Joe Orji: So I've got experience in the US and Africa. I think most people, a lot of folks have gone through one recession. People of a little bit more experienced, kind of, generation 1 through 2, so that's actually going to be pre recession. Tech bubble, I'll run for the tech bubble. GFC.
Joe Orji: And whatever we had from the COVID, the COVID crisis. So I'm battle scarred. At this point, it doesn't phase me. When COVID happened, all my friends were just going crazy. Because when I was working in D. C. doing GFC, unfortunately people were literally jumping out, losing a million jobs a month.
Joe Orji: And I worked through it in a real estate, and I really watched my income dive down like 90%. Then sticking to it and having it build back up. Going through that, you get really tough skin. So when COVID happened and the world was going crazy. I was, and all my friends were just panicking, going crazy.
Joe Orji: You're seeing this stuff always go down. I was actually telling them buy now, now's the time to buy, buy now, buy oil, buy stock. I was just [00:18:00] telling them to buy equity, buy stuff. They were like, you're crazy. There's no oil. And then you just saw everything go back up. I have a kind of a hard affinity for risk.
Joe Orji: I like to think I did calculated risks, but I do take risks. I think when I started fundraising, targeting people who knew me and knew what I had executed, leveraging that. What we're really leveraging was Founder Profile, because we had zero rev, zero.
Joe Orji: The product was still being built. We had dirty, stinking, terribly ugly MVP but at least we had something, right? It was almost a team of, it was almost a team of one. If you look at it, we actually had no business investing in the business.
Joe Orji: Didn't have any rev, didn't have any product It was a fleeting thing. A guy had never built a tech company before, right? And the world was going to shit. And we're raising [00:19:00] a 7 million dollars. When there were some fintechs who actually had some track.
Vlad Cazacu: Absolutely. I do have a quick follow up there because I feel like I'm hearing like three intertwining narratives around one, the strategy coming in, the number, the sheer number of people reaching out to the sales playbooks that you've developed over time and you're applying to the fundraising.
Vlad Cazacu: The other one is the thread of execution. And I'm going to couple, let's say the mindset with that, just like relentless pursuit of excellence and being able to work 80, 90 hours a week and making sure that happens, executing on the strategy you set in place. And the third thread is around relationship building, right?
Vlad Cazacu: Because you talked about years of experience in business and the ability to build a relationship with those people. Ideally make them money in the past through the real estate investments and now present them with the opportunity of doing it [00:20:00] again in a different industry, sure, with some different caveats.
Vlad Cazacu: But looking in retrospect to Your success in this fundraise. I'm wondering between the strategy and the planning, the execution and the mindset and third, the depth and breadth of relationships with those people. How would you weigh that in regards to the actual success of the fundraise at the end of the day?
Joe Orji: I think you nailed it. I think you nailed it very well. So, we had a launch and we had some of our investors speak at that launch, and many of them said, listen, they invested in the founder, they invested in the guy, right? They just felt that he was able to do it. When you segmented those things, you talked about the strategy, right?
Joe Orji: Which is truly going out, not going after VCs. Bring them off to the next round and I'll get to them next, after building this base going out to friends and family. And by the way, we have 23 investors in this round. So what we did there is we're creating events. So we have a solid base.
Joe Orji: As a builder, no matter [00:21:00] how awesome your building is up top, if you have a shitty foundation it's gonna fall down. It was having a strategy, like I said, and also same thing goes in when you're running a business. We know that trust group can be used in practically every sector in Africa and in America. And we will expand to America, we'll expand across Africa. But that's a very big elephant and we accomplish that by being very, very small as we're starting in real estate.
Joe Orji: Okay, so we're ignoring every other sector, just starting real estate right now, just like we ignored all of the investors, just focus on them. So you have to have a very narrow strategy, with the understanding that you'll get seen and heard by other people.
Joe Orji: Our lead is actually a VC, but I had no clue who he was. I sent our deck to a very good friend of mine, I spoke to him about it. I said, yeah, listen, I know some guys, I'll introduce you to some guys. I introduce this, one of his partners is a fantastic, solid, incredible VC. Shout out to Rabbit Capital, really awesome guy, George, a great dude.
Joe Orji: So the plan worked, and so there's that, and there's the execution, there's also the brand new [00:22:00] relationships. So, my educational background is finance, my professional background is real estate, my passion is actually sales and marketing.
Joe Orji: And I do a pretty decent job of developing a brand around the concept. With Trustcrow even though it's an instant escrow business, we're not selling escrow, we're actually selling trust, we're selling certainty. In the fundraise, the brand that we love is Listen.
Joe Orji: You're investing in, founders right? Because you have a lot of options. You can go and invest in other profile folks who may know how to code and so on and so forth and maybe a little bit younger, and show, you know, they have other things, right? I don't know how to code what I do know is execute on that period. That's what we sold to people.
Joe Orji: It was that kind of listen, we're building a brand around past track and our ability to execute and that's what you're buying into. You're buying into track, you're buying into track record [00:23:00] and prior execution.
Joe Orji: And the last thing is obviously leverage a lot of relationships. And that's why I take this thing very seriously. Because I know people understand that it's equity and startup and it's a high risk. Like I said, my parents invested, so that's 42 years of relationship, but we have, you know, guys who I've known for 20 years to mess in this. These are serious relationships that we're about to do. So all those things we are doing is what helped us succeed.
Vlad Cazacu: So what about right before we jump into the rapid fire towards the end of this episode, I'm curious to hear more about the people that said no, right?
Vlad Cazacu: Because I think not a lot of people are speaking about this. You were talking about building on trust and selling that founder track record and the execution. What were some of the reasons people didn't buy into that?
Joe Orji: I'm going to give a bit of a, I'm going to put together an answer. I'm going to add a few things into it. So I have a great friend. Again, this is 25 year old relationships. His name is Bret Stiles. [00:24:00] He's an executive VC. He runs Mount Sinai venture arm and he, I remember he once told me, Joe, VCs don't know anything about this. He was like, venture capitalists don't anything, venture capital. And he tried to explain to me, I was like, dude you're just being an idiot. He's okay, watch, you'll see. But anyway, there's nothing wrong with saying no, you don't have to invest. But there was two kinds of guys that said no, there are guys who said no, and you just really respected their assessment, how they went by.
Joe Orji: The reason why is because they humbled themselves. They actually said, I don't know. So, they humbled themselves and they asked questions. And to get knowledgeable about the market. Because you can't do everything in the industry.
Joe Orji: There's a guy who said, listen, I think this is super interesting. I think you referenced better than anybody I've ever spoken to in the past. So he called a bunch of people and even great references. And with my track, he was like, no, I want to stay in touch because I think it's interesting.
Joe Orji: I think maybe just wanted to see a certain areas and till today, I have tremendous respect to [00:25:00] them. When I even traveled to England, I spent two hours with the guy who said no, because again, just keep my relationship. And then there was the other set of people who were like, just didn't really understand, like, not just my business 'business'.
Joe Orji: I know that the industry is small and all this, I'm trying to be very respectful, but I've got 20 years of operating experience. So, I'll be talking to someone who's referred to me, talking to an associate who has probably 7 to 10 years of finance experience, never operated a business.
Joe Orji: And I'm telling him certain things. So he rebuts, he gives me his objection. And I gave him a counter objection that is rooted in history and truth. This guy's looking like, yeah, what the fuck am I talking about? He has zero clue, zero.
Joe Orji: And I'm just like, take this guy, he knows what the hell he's talking about. But you have to be super respectful. So it's fine if you have zero clue. Show humility and ask questions, I gained a lot of respect for him in his [00:26:00] investment processes. Those are, those are the best.
Vlad Cazacu: What a great way to end the main part of the episode. And it's a interesting type of like, this is advice, not only for founders, but also for investors for listening to this episode, I want to make sure that we make some highlights out of this, because there's a lot of depth to what you said about the way people can show interest and intellectual curiosity, even though they may not know as much about the business at hand compared to trying to just assume that they know better because they know everything compared to someone who actually has experience in the space.
Vlad Cazacu: But we'll leave the VC rants for an appendix to the episode. I want to make sure that we have a little bit of time to go through some of the rapid fire questions. So I'm going to shoot three quick questions for them, expecting three quick answers. They're not necessarily business related, just to get a chance for more people to understand Joe and his background.
Vlad Cazacu: And the first [00:27:00] question that we always start with.
Joe Orji: I don't want your money anymore. I already paid him back.
Vlad Cazacu: That's a good, that's a good one. That's a good one. The one we usually start with is what is one thing that people don't know about Joe that you feel more people should be aware of?
Joe Orji: I used to be fun. I'm not so much fun anymore.
Vlad Cazacu: I'm wondering, I would want more people to know that. But I guess I'm not, I'm not allowed to ask follow up questions, so I'll stick to my own rules. Question number two, a longstanding tradition or a company that we wanted to bring to this podcast as well, which is ending every conversation with a point of gratitude, looking back on your career and your entrepreneurial adventure, who are you most thankful for?
Joe Orji: Um, well, to God and wife.
Vlad Cazacu: Great answer and such a great way to end the podcast. My gratitude goes to you, Joe, really appreciate taking one [00:28:00] hour of your busy schedule in between the back to back meetings to share your journey with us and our listeners. I think we had amazing conversation with really insightful answers.
Vlad Cazacu: And I'm really excited to have you back on the podcast at the seed round and we can continue the VC rant, then.
Joe Orji: This is super awesome. Thanks a lot for having me on. Big shout out to my brother Mark over there. Big shout out to the guys at Flowlie, right? I know this is a different podcast, but seriously, I just have to plug this in. If any founder is raising and you're not using Flowlie – check it out. Seriously, it's a fantastic product. Yeah. Check it out.
Vlad Cazacu: Really, really appreciate you. It was a premiere for the podcast. So, we'll make it to the final edit. Thank you so much Joe, really appreciate it.
Joe Orji: My absolute pleasure. Thanks dude.
Vlad Cazacu: What a great conversation. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like and subscribe to our podcast and be on the lookout for a new episode in two weeks as we interview another amazing startup founder and debrief their successful fundraising [00:29:00] story. This podcast was made possible by Flowlie. If you're currently fundraising or planning to do so in the near future, create a free account today on Flowlie at flowlie.com, that's FLOWLIE.com, and get access to an investor database curated just for you and powerful lecturing capabilities with advanced access and engagement tracking. Are you ready to take your fundraising journey to the next level and join thousands of founders across the globe who use the platform every single day?
Vlad Cazacu: Find the discount code in the show notes and sign up today. That's it for today's episode, see you next time.